A call to arms. - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

A call to arms.

Amanda · Expert

Well Done Shaun!!!!!

I do like your approach, I'd stick to the AAT anyway. Sometime these bodies have very jobsworth people and stick to it ridgidly not caring that they loose people on the way, as they will be thinking that there are probably plenty of others that will only do theirs and not want the lengthly process of AAT, ACCA or CIMA.

You do make me laugh on here.

Glad you haven't stayed away yet!!! I'm back down to studying (had nasty cold this week), so won't be on here as much now. Thing is need to turn the laptop off otherwise its tempting just to have a look!

cheers
A

-- Edited by Amanda on Friday 26th of February 2010 07:48:54 PM

Susie Sue · Senior Member

Go Shaun - Go Shaun - Go Shaun !!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Sue, Hi Amanda,

thanks for the support babes. Don't worry Amanda, Sue assures me that she's willing to Share! (still a Tom cat even with a different pic!).

Glad your on the mend from your cold Amanda... Just in time for the weekend! (Plenty of time to study from Monday).

My letter must have made an impression at the ICB as I got a reply at just before nine tonight that I've just finished replying to.... Now just wait for the fireworks.

I have been on here less Amanda (honest) but I know what you mean about keep drifting back to the site when you should be studying.

Do you have a study plan that you try to stick to or do you jut wing it as and when you can? Hope that you're still setting time aside for yourself!

Complete girlie that I am I've got the DVD the Ugly Truth to watch tonight. Hope it's as funny as it looks in the ads as could do with a bit of a giggle after the ICB and a full day of group accounts.

And on that note time to fire up the old DVD player.

Toodle pip for now.

Talk soon,

Shaun.

Amy8n · Veteran Member

I am usually quite defensive of the ICB and, indeed, I'm all for their move to raise the standards of the institute. However, I'm slightly annoyed that although I'm MICB (comp) they won't recognise my degree for the new manual bookkeeping rules.

I have BSc (hons) Business Studies and the accountancy module covered everything on both Levels1 2 and 3. I was awarded a 1st for this module and have evidence to support this.

I grant you I'm 30 years old so it may be a while since I graduated but Ive completed CPD each year.

My husband is ACA (soon to be FCA) and agrees the attitude of the ICB is somewhat heavy handed.

Perhaps for the first 12 months of the new system they should accept existing members on a case by case basis?

Sorry, rant over!

Wella · Expert

Hi Shaun

Looking forward to hearing the outcome (Do I need to remove all references to the ICB from my posts?)

Glad to see you still manage a few minutes break to offer you help and opinions -
Have you noticed you have been elevated to Guru status?

Got to go - doing a month end for a client whose paper work is a real mess. Also going to find a virtual bucket of water to throw over a certain tom cat

Have a good weekend

Bill

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Amy,

in the more senior response from the ICB that I received at nine last night I was informed that the reasoning behind their decision was that based on statistics only 32% of people with qualification from other awarding bodies such as AAT and ACCA pass the entrance paper and generally fail on fundamental bookkeeping functions.

Personally, when I took the entrance exam with no revision and having only used ACCA materials previously I scored 99% and far from feeling happy about it I couldn't understand where the other 1% had been deducted!

I suspect that the statistics quoted to me were not actually for fully or nearly fully qualified members of the other bodies but rather people studying towards other qualifications.

There is a problem with ACCA that I've noticed in that at each paper there are less and less candidates sitting making me think that there is a tremendous dropout rate and these must be going somewhere!

For example, when I took paper 1.1 the candidates for that one paper alone filled two large halls in Birmingham. By the later stages there are several papers being sat simultaneously in the same hall.

All those who have dropped out can remain as students for ten years and even if they have only scraped through one paper they can claim to be Part Qualified ACCA!

I'm wondering if the 32% that's being quoted actually includes all those who were / are only at the very early stages of their studies?

In the note it also appeared that all other accountancy bodies / qualifications were being bundled into one statistical basket.

Coming from a world on banking operations and management consultancy (so pretty much an accountant already just not yet qualified as one) I know that one can do with statistics pretty much whatever you want.

Like yourself Amy I've been defending the fact that the ICB is attempting to become a more professional and better respected organisation. My problem is with the way they are doing it such disregard to it's existing members in practice.

They could have used my ACCA and your continued CPD as the necessary CPD to grant exemption from the manual exams but instead I was hit with this rubbish about the ACCA being management accounting and not covering the ICB syllabus which is just hogwash.

As you state Amy, cases should be looked at on an individual basis but that doesn't seem to be in the ICB's agenda at the moment.

My impression is that the only time that the ICB listen is when they have a threat to their revenue. As such, even though the fee's that I pay are obviously insignificant voting with my feet seems to be the only way of making the voices of the members heard.

What's the old saying... All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing!
of course, needs updating to make it non gender specific but you get the general flow. (told you that it was a call to arms!!!).

talk in a bit,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bill,

I'd not seen my new status before! Didn't even know that one actually existed.

Wonder what happens at a thousand posts! Maybe one becomes a lesser deity?

Careful with that bucket of water though as you may have Sue to answer to!!! lol

Good luck with the month end matey.

Talk later,

The Luurv guru!

Wella · Expert

Shamus wrote:

Coming from a world on banking operations and management consultancy (so pretty much an accountant already just not yet qualified as one) I know that one can do with statistics pretty much whatever you want.

From one who studied statistics and to quote Mark Twain

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Bill

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi bill,

and of course the in joke for statisticians...

84% of all statistics are meaningless...

Oh dear. You know that you've crossed a line when you understand accountants joke.

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Just had a note from the ICB saying that from June level II and III manual exams will be available on demand at Pearson Vue centres.

This was as part of a reply to state that they would not reconsider the ACCA qualification as being up to the level expected of the ICB! (I didn't actually ask them to reconsider. I told the that their statistics were vague and unsubstantiated).

Anyway, this pretty much squelches the original statement by the ICB that in most cases we would be able to cover ourselves by continued professional development... I suspect what they actually meant by CPD was taking their exams.

Mmm, to quote my Father "Don't pea in my ear and tell me it's raining!".

Being a member was supposed to help my business not get in it's way and have me running around for no return taking exams that I don't need.

Right, officially tired of the whole thing now. back to fun things like debating skip hire with Bill.

Shaun.

Amanda · Expert

Hi Shaun,

They are just unblievable, the ACCA is far higher in my opinion. Anyway I'm sure this one could go on for a long time.

In response to your earlier post, have I got a study plan, the answer is not not really although I should have. I seem to fit it in and around work and children (taxi), am going to look at my working schedule to see if I can pinch a few hours in the daytime as the evenings are killing me, hence the nasty cold which after 7 days I actually feel half human today, so hopefully it may start to go away!!!

Get easily distracted by this forum though!!!!
Do you have a study plan, maybe a spreadsheet of times/hours that you need to do? Any tips would be great! I used to be rally good but I think when you work for yourself and study, I suppose work comes first as it pays the bills.

Cheers
A

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Amanda,

I think that the ACCA is far higher in everyone's opinion but the ICB seem to live on their own little planet where they see themselves completely differently to how everyone else see's them.

Glad to hear that your on the mend. I know how hard it can be finding the hours to study.... Then again, don't know about you but my house is never as clean as when I should be studying!!!

How did you know that my plan would be in Excel! lol.

At the minute it's just a couple of worksheets. One as a calendar and countdown and the other with a list of every chapter of every book that I need to read with two dates next to it. One for the date that I should read the chapter by and one for the date that I actually read it (If I get ahead of my plan I do have a tendency to be a bit lazy on the study front until the plans caught up with me).

I find that if I plan specific times something like work will get in the way of it so I just plan that I will do a piece of study on a specific day rather than at a specific time. That way if I've not done something that I should have I just go at it before bed. (Anything before 6 a.m. is yesterday!).

I always carry a bundle of around a hundred index cards in my pocket with questions on one side and answers on the other. Read them whenever I've got five mins. Shuffle them to make sure that I'm not just memorising the sequence of answers and alternate the bundle with others that I've amassed.

I find that like yourself I do tend to wander onto this site at every opportunity (which in itself is a learning reinforcement opportunity) but I've got my spreadsheet that tells me by which day I should have read each chapter so regardless of my indiscretions I do actually manage to keep to the plan (most of the time).

Not started planning in old exam papers yet but six weeks before the exam there will be three columns in my spreadsheet for them as well (date planned, date done, time taken).

Hope something in the above helps,

Shaun.

Amanda · Expert

Hi Shaun

I like the idea of spreadsheets, looks like thats my evening taking care of!
I have to have a visual on the wall, I stick things like notes etc that I find hard to learn on the wall infront of me, so I see it everyday, its surprising when you are sat in the exam and the thing you struggled to learn is in your mind infront of you onthe wall. It works everytime. I suppose you end up drumming the information into you without realising. I also do loads of past exam papers nearer the time. At first I am abit slow but it gets abit quicker in time.

I know what you mean about the house! Never mind the house will still be standing after the exams. Hubbys got use to it now, he does help which is good.

I am going to get discliplined like you!

Cheers
A

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Mmm, keeping something in front of you all the time to remember it....

tried that with the girlfriend but still went and called her my ex wife's name.... Now ex girlfriend as well!

Wella · Expert

An uncomfortable situation but I can think of a similar but worse scenario involving girlfriend's name and wifes (not from experience, you understand)

Bill

AAAAK · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun,

I came across this professional body this morning (IFA) and i realised that joining them might make practising certificate easier to get.Below is an extract from their website.

Benefits
In addition to improving professional status and enhancing career prospects, IFA membership attracts a full range of benefits including:

Access to ICAEW Library & Information service
Monthly Enewsletter
Regional Seminars taking place in the North West, Midlands, South West, London, Yorkshire and Midlands
wk5.com Credit Management Helpline
Online Learning provided by Nelson Croom at Preferential rates
The status conferred by the designatory letters (Dip FA, AFA, FFA)

Use of the title Incorporated Financial Accountant' by Associates and Fellows
Bi-Monthly magazine Financial Accountant' keeping members abreast of legislative developments in the accountancy profession and in contact with their Institute
Networking Opportunities at the regional seminars and District Society events
Continuing Professional Development
Preferential rates for insurance from our approved supplier Lockton
Tax Data Card ( UK Only)
Annual Pocket Diary
Accounts prepared by IFA members are accepted by major banks and lending Sources
Tax Relief on IFA Annual Subscription ( UK Only)
Access to useful information on the IFA website membership area
A practising certificate enables practising members to be listed on the IFA website and to be regulated by the
Institute in accordance with the UK Money Laundering Regulations
Technical advice covering Tax, VAT, PAYE, Payroll, Employment & Personnel,Health & Safety and Commercial Law

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Lawason,

Always good to hear from you.

it's one that I had looked at in the past and I know that a lot of ACCA people have gone that way due to the hoops that need to be jumped through to get an ACCA practicing certificate.

The IFA is very much a career path pushed by the IAB. The downside is that even though it's one of the oldest institutes it's not chartered. Something that even the ICB can lay claim to.

Once you've passed all of the ACCA exams so long as you've been accepted to membership even if not allowed to practice with their blessing I believe that there is more flexibility in keeping your status and joining other institutions provided that you do not reference your ACCA status at all as part of your practice.

However, if you go IFA before attaining ACCA membership then you would have to step down from the ACCA and would not be allowed to continue to take your remaining exams. So you would be abandoning all of your hard work.

You would need to check that with the ACCA bylaws and get written confirmation from them in relation to taking out additional memberships.

Note that as with the ACA scheme you would still need to keep your ACCA membership as well as IFA even though you would not be allowed to use any reference to your ACCA status.

I am now absolutely determined that I will get that qualification even if the only use that I have for it is to get exemption from the joining requirements of another body such as the IFA.

Hope to talk again soon.

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 2nd of March 2010 12:59:19 AM

AAAAK · Veteran Member

Hi Shanu,

Do I have to tell ACCA that I am a member of IAB? Because at the moment am about to apply for their practising certificate.

-- Edited by AAAAK on Monday 1st of March 2010 04:32:45 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Lawason,

There's no requirement to tell them providing that you adhere to the requirements of the ACCA.

Namely. The services you provide must be no more than Payroll, VAT and bookkeeping to trial balance.

Any more than that and you would have to stand down from the ACCA as the supervisory body as the most restrictive covenants take precedence.

My only reason for being with ICB was for MLR and to get cheaper PII via Trafalgar. I'm now going to have to get MLR directly from HMRC unless like yourself I either swap to the IAB or go with the plan to take the AAT technical level (although cost / benefit analysis on that one is not good).

AAAAK · Veteran Member

Hi Shanu,

ok, I spoke to AAT and I was told that with my BA Hons ,I can get started from Diploma level 4,when I have alook at the contents of the modules in level 4, I realised that they were what have done before, when I spoke to the contact person in Kaplan about complete exemptions, I was told to join ACCA or CIMA instead of AAT because they can't give me total exemption. But looking at the cost of Diploma level 4 with the exams is not cheap. Incase I join AAT, does that mean I have to drop my ACCA? Because I will be doing more than bookkeeping services.

-- Edited by AAAAK on Monday 1st of March 2010 05:30:06 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Lawason,

no matter who you join you will always be restricted to only offering the services that you are allowed to by the ACCA. Namely Payroll, VAT and bookkeeping to trial balance.

If you perform more than that but remain as a member of the ACCA then you would be subject to ACCA disciplinary proceedings.

So unfortunately if you go AAT as you can do more as an MAAT MIP then you would need to step down from ACCA. Don't forget that you would still need to get one year post qualification supervised to get MAAT status.

The AAT route is another option for MLR cover but as you state, it's expensive. With Premier training including all exam fee's and membership I could do technician level for a little short of £1000 (£599 for the study, £46 per paper plus membership fee's).

The AAT is a quality qualification but ACCA is higher up the tree so I can't justify doing it at that level of expenditure (which is probably still cheaper than Kaplan).

The IAB seems a better bet to get MLR cover but I'm looking at the application form and thinking well, I don't want any clients to know that I'm a member and it's a bit unprofessional anyway to get them to be referee's. And, although it may sound a bit snobbish I don't want any of my accountant friends to know that I'm contemplating becoming a member.

Like trying to find your way through a maze with a blindfold on isn't it!

Talk later,

Shaun.