Letters after your name - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Eilef · Senior Member

Letters after your name

TrevorD · Senior Member

Good Morning Eilef

A quick reply - you can use AICB after your name - but when it comes to stationery it gets complicated, if you want to use the ICB crest on it. Once, you have got your practice licence, you can use the Vista print portal that has all the allowed templates (ie you fill in the missing bits). Otherwise, you have to submit your design to the ICB for approval !!!

Eilef · Senior Member

Hi Trevor,

Didn't know that thanks for the heads up.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

TrevorD wrote:
Otherwise, you have to submit your design to the ICB for approval !!!

Seriously????!!!!!!!!!!!!

One of my lot is the ACIB (and no Ive not got those the wrong way round!)

Personally Ive found that the more you add in terms of letters the more the small businesses are put off - they see it as pretentious. Especially if they have no clue what those letters mean. But maybe thats just in certain areas.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

I totally agree Joanne

John IABIA

(I'm a bookkeeper, I am)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

lol John,

I vote the following changed acronyms

IAB "I'm A Bookkeeper"

ICB : "I Can Bookkeep"

AAT : "ACCA or ACA Trainee"

I can see the arguement against using letter and I seldom use mine even though like everyone who's achieved something I'm incredibly proud of them... But in some instances using them just seems a bit pretentious. i.e. you would probably use them in a very small font on your business cards but would you use them in your signiture on here?

The ICB logo has always been one of their main selling points. clients don't have a clue what the logo means / represents but it looks like it should be something impressive and gives an official air to documents. The tie up to the VistaPrint site does sound a little as though such is licensed to them... Which might also explain the ridilulous cost of printed letter heads. (so much cheaper just knocking them out through your own printer).

I think that if you have to go to VistaPrint then go once for the minimum order then scan the document into your system and print your own after that.

I personally would not put the ICB logo on business cards, if you are going to mention them at all then the letters after your name say enough.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Trevor,

its not how many letters you have but what they say about you.

i.e. seeing ACA after a name says more than someone elses that might go over more than one line.

If AICB means something to you and to those you give your card to then its enough and you don't need the rest of the clutter.

If filling a line is more important then there are also things like the ICB Payroll and Self Assessement qualifications to add additional letters.

VinceH · Expert

"I think that if you have to go to VistaPrint then go once for the minimum order then scan the document into your system and print your own after that."

Which, strictly speaking, could be copyright infringement if you're using one of their already-designed templates.

And if you are designing the letterhead yourself using their software, why not use something on your own computer, so you have the letterhead you've designed in a scalable form that you can use for multiple purposes?

Highly recommended (I use it a lot, although I usually only upgrade every two or three versions, so I'm not on the latest): http://www.xara.com/uk/photo-graphic-designer/

Edit: Upon re-reading after posting, it kind of looked as though I was saying the software was by me. It isn't, so I've fixed that.

-- Edited by VinceH on Thursday 6th of August 2015 01:02:05 PM

-- Edited by VinceH on Thursday 6th of August 2015 01:02:31 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

So.

things are geared towards having to use one supplier and having to pay outlandish fee's for letterheads and you can't legally copy a printers products that you have purchased (no comment on business cards as I believe that they should always be professionally printed).

Simple answer. use the knowledge gained under ICB to pass the AAT skills test and then practice as a self employed student. You would have to have MLR through HMRC and only be able to go to trial balance but if you wanted to go any further than trial balance why would one have chosen a bookkeeping qualification? (ties in nicely to this current thread : www.book-keepers.org.uk/t60287799/is-the-icb-a-bookkeeping-or-accounting-body/)

Simples, no issue with expensive logo's on letterheads (actually, no logo's on letterheads as on a self employed basis you can make no mention of AAT until you have been granted MAAT MIP status... Which also solves the question of letters after names, lol).

Leger · Master Book-keeper

VinceH wrote:
Highly recommended (I use it a lot, although I usually only upgrade every two or three versions, so I'm not on the latest): http://www.xara.com/uk/photo-graphic-designer/
Edit: Upon re-reading after posting, it kind of looked as though I was saying the software was by me. It isn't, so I've fixed that.

That looks interesting, I'll have a play with it. I currently use Coreldraw for graphic design and Corel Photopaint for images, but it's expensive and it'll be a long time before I could justify upgrading (I'm on version 12 which I picked up cheap 3 or 4 years ago)

VinceH · Expert

"I currently use Coreldraw for graphic design and Corel Photopaint for images"

In that case, you might be interested in this little bit of history.

The company behind Photo and Graphic Designer is an evolution of a software company called Computer Concepts. CC produced a number of products for RISC OS (my preferred operating system) including a very popular graphics package called Artworks - which compared very favourably with CorelDraw at the time CC were producing it.

Photo and Graphic Designer was originally called something else (Studio rings a bell), and began as a rewrite of Artworks to Windows.

And guess which company originally bought the rights to sell it?

Yup... Corel.

And I believe that although they bought the rights to market and sell it, they did an awful job of doing so - which could possibly be seen as an attempt at burying the (better) competition. (Embrace... extend... extinguish - a not uncommon phenomenon.)

Somewhere down the line, therefore, that deal came to an end.

As for the RISC OS app, Artworks, someone else took over continued development of that - and at one point (I don't know if this is still so) he was doing some work for Xara. Probably on the graphics package.

-- Edited by VinceH on Thursday 6th of August 2015 02:51:21 PM

-- Edited by VinceH on Thursday 6th of August 2015 02:52:42 PM

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Thanks Vince, I'll definitely give it a try.

VinceH · Expert

"So.

things are geared towards having to use one supplier and having to pay outlandish fee's for letterheads and you can't legally copy a printers products"

Design it (the whole thing - not using one of their templates with your own additions) yourself, and you can scan and copy it all you like. Otherwise the work includes material created by someone else and, as such, you are only using it under licence.

Most of Vista Print's designs include an option to design from scratch, IIRC.

Bear in mind, though, that I'm making a blindingly obvious assumption - that Vista Print are designing the templates in-house (or having them designed by a third party under contract), and are therefore wanting to protect their investment. For all I know, their terms and conditions might actually say that copying in the way you suggest is perfectly acceptable, or they might be using templates they've sourced from elsewhere under an open licence that allows free use.

The bottom line is that if it a design that incorporates work put in by another party, the copyright laws are applicable. Therefore, if you want to remain legal, always make sure that what you are doing is allowed by the licence under which you are using that design in the first place.

"that you have purchased"

But the point is (subject to what their Ts & Cs actually state) that what you have purchased is the physical product that happens to include the design, not the design itself.

Just like when you buy a CD or a DVD; you own the physical media, but you do not somehow gain ownership of the music, movie or other disc content - that's just licensed to you.

-- Edited by VinceH on Thursday 6th of August 2015 03:17:13 PM

TrevorD · Senior Member

Hi Shaun

Eilef - Just asked "What can he do?" - As Kris says the customer don't give a damn - it's all about what you can do for him. However, I do think, that a customer may be reassured that you can do the job, you say and maybe have some recourse !!! Would, you use an unqualified electrician, gas fitter, doctor or surgeon. Do you class members of the ICB or IAB, as like complementary therapy/medicine for the accounting profession ?

As, Kris says the ICB, seems to have a massive global expansion policy and teamed up with Sage to ensure every bookkeeper in the world is trained and goes forth with Sage. www.bookkeepers.org.uk/resources/news/general/icb-sage-partnership-announced-/a/6401

I can understand that the ICB wishes to protect its trademark and ensure it is not abused or used in appropriately - You would ?

Still working on my logo and business name !!!

TrevorD · Senior Member

PS - Starting to love VT Transaction + ..

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

TrevorD wrote:
Hi Shaun
Hi Trevor
Eilef - Just asked "What can he do?" - As Kris says the customer don't give a damn - it's all about what you can do for him. However, I do think, that a customer may be reassured that you can do the job, you say and maybe have some recourse !!! Would, you use an unqualified electrician, gas fitter, doctor or surgeon.
I think that this possibly relates to a different thread?
Who's talking about people being unqualified?... hang on a sec, let me just reread the threads... Ahh, I see what you mean, people being qualified but unable to show clients that they are qualified if you cannot use the letters. Good point. But thats not the same as someone being unqualified to do the work.
Do you class members of the ICB or IAB, as like complementary therapy/medicine for the accounting profession ?
Never thought of ICB/IAB in that way... Its an interesting analogy but are not ICB/IAB trying to do the right things whereas many of those involved with alternate medicine are more tied to the placebo effect.
As, Kris says the ICB, seems to have a massive global expansion policy
But Kris goes on to disagree with it as why are they looking to expand overseas when they have not conquered their home turf (ICB still being relatively unknown by accountants and businesses).
and teamed up with Sage to ensure every bookkeeper in the world is trained and goes forth with Sage.www.bookkeepers.org.uk/resources/news/general/icb-sage-partnership-announced-/a/6401
God help us all!!!!
But then, how can they state that every bookkeeper is going to use Sage when they represent only a small subset of the people working as bookkeepers.
Of course, there's no point worrying about it as it's never going to happen. IFRS is one thing (although, thats not going to help crack the rules based US market), cross border tax laws are something else entirely.
I can understand that the ICB wishes to protect its trademark and ensure it is not abused or used in appropriately - You would ?
Not sure what you mean there either. We are talking about a statement where it is stated that the ICB require you to use VistaPrint (good stationary provider, nothing against them)... Why?

Still working on my logo and business name !!!

The questions raised by claims in that link are..

How many members do the ICB have in the UK now?

How many worldwide? In what countries?

How many people working as bookkeepers are members of the ICB? (I suspect relatively few with the bulk of people working as bookkeepers being AAT trained or PQs).

How can they state that they are the largest when the bulk of people working in a bookkeeping capacity are members of accounting bodies?

How can they claim to be a bookkeeping only organisation at all when they offer accounting services?

There seems to be no relevant statistics anywhere related to the ICB (not sure if thats better or worse than when the ICB did used to produce statistics but give no indication as to relevance and credibility of the underlying data).

Nothing against you matey, just trying to ensure that people who read this site make their decisions based on considered facts (which are largely missing) rather than marketing spin.

Also nothing against what the ICB are trying to achieve, they are a business and are looking to grow and make income from all possible income streams as they should. The issue occurs when they start claiming differentiation and even superiority without verifiable third party evidence to support such claims.

All the best,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Thought that a change of Avatar was called for for the duration of the debate.

TrevorD · Senior Member

As you say Shaun - ICB UK is a closed shop - no stats at all ........ none what so ever ...... it publishes nothing ... (ICB Australia on Twitter, give an update weekly on membership ie renewals, upgrades etc). ICBs Global progression is undaunted (As Kris points out ... it may be rushed and at the detriment of members in the UK, as things are seen as unfinished here or not ideal !!!)

On the stationery front - If you have an ICB practice licence you can just order stationery through, the ICB Vista print site ...... If you want to design your own stationery ... that is fine. If you want to use the ICB Crest on your own design stationery (not via Vista print portal) it has to be approved by the ICB (as they want to maintain the integrity of the Crest - in my eyes nothing wrong there).

Also, as you say the ICB advertise in PQ magazine and actively, try to recruit from the whole industry. The new ... Level IV Diploma in Advanced Bookkeeping and Accounting

is interesting as you say, it does go beyond the trial balance and into preparing final accounts under UKGAAP, IFRS and corporation tax returns for micro and small companies. Surely, the ICB should provide career development and progression for its members.

The AAT offer bookkeeping courses, separate to their accounting courses at level 3. The IAB offer courses around the world !!! its an interesting time !!!

Love the Avatar ... you looking for the smoking bomb .....

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

My goodness. Don't think my ears have burned so much, and I've not even taken part in the thread.

I did use the letters after my name from ICB, but not all of them. I also had a discussion on the ICB forum a while back where I said that I didn't think that the ICB was as big a selling point as they made out. To prove this I removed the crest from my site and never got round to putting it back.

Now that I've cancelled my ICB membership, I don't think that I ever will now.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Kris,

Trevor was linking accross threads Kris to the one where you quite correctly questioned whether BKN should really have Book-keeper in the name.

www.book-keepers.org.uk/t60287799/is-the-icb-a-bookkeeping-or-accounting-body/

Hope you read my reply over there. I agree with you about the name of this site. We're not bookkeepers we're financial professionals at all levels where bookkeeping just happens to be a large part of our role.

Didn't know that you had parted company with the ICB!

Are they still letting you post on their site in all area's or have you been excommunicated? (quite literally, lol).

All the best,

Shaun.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I have told them that I'm not renewing my membership, which I think runs out at the end of September.

I can't imagine that I'll be allowed to post in their forum after that.

Kris

TrevorD · Senior Member

Bet you can .... so lets see ....

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Bet he can't!

Then again, sure that there may be specific reasons why my IP Address cannot post over there anymore... just can't imagine why!... Oh wait, think I've had an idea!!!

Kris,

make sure that you keep their reply to your resignation as evidence as I remember a couple of years back they were taking non renewal as non payment of subscriptions rather than not being a member anymore and basically fining people for leaving (can't remember the thread that was in).

I think that they take your leaving as the day that they receive your ICB membership certificate back again (make sure that you send it back recorded delivery).

You might also get the letter telling you that you won't be able to trade once you leave as your MLR can only be through them (don't have to tell you that that one's incorrect).

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I spoke to James about it a few times (on the phone) so I know that they have received the notification of ending my membership. I've got the IAB application in already so hopefully an easy switch. Worst case scenario I'll register for MLR with HMRC.

Kris

TrevorD · Senior Member

Hi Kris

When I spoke to the IAB ... they would only let me join as an AIAB (the monthly committee has to approve your application) and then you can apply for a practice licence ... which then has to go through a process ... it seemed it may take some time ....

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I spoke to them and they said my timeline was realistic. Either way, registering with HMRC for a year isn't something that will put me off right now. They've agreed FIAB so that's good too.

Anyway, I'm back to college this year hopefully to tidy some bits and pieces up and then will be looking at my degree perhaps. This might mean that I look at other bodies in the near future too.

Kris

Eilef · Senior Member

Talking of other bodies (not the dead ones) has anyone joined the chamber of commerce?

I was talking to my current boss about my final exam coming up and he asked me how I was going to market my business, so when I said I was planning on going to some local network meetings he was well impressed.

He said I should consider the chamber of commerce as it's mainly small business and have regular network meetings.

I checked the website out and it's not cheap, just wondering if anyone else has joined and found it useful.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Hi Eilef

It's definitely something worth considering although I think they're more aimed at the bigger companies (medium and large) not micro and small businesses. I worked for Derbyshire & Nottinghamshire Chamber in an accounting role for a year and a half and they were quite proactive in gaining new members. Might be worth sounding them out especially for the networking side.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Leger wrote:
I totally agree Joanne

John IABIA
(I'm a bookkeeper, I am)

I think I might use those. Might be better than Chartered Institute of Bankers I currently have. Chartered rather than certified! Certified I need to be perhaps!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
lol John,

I vote the following changed acronyms

IAB "I'm A Bookkeeper"

ICB : "I Can Bookkeep"

AAT : "ACCA or ACA Trainee"

I can see the arguement against using letter and I seldom use mine even though like everyone who's achieved something I'm incredibly proud of them... But in some instances using them just seems a bit pretentious. i.e. you would probably use them in a very small font on your business cards but would you use them in your signiture on here?

The ICB logo has always been one of their main selling points. clients don't have a clue what the logo means / represents but it looks like it should be something impressive and gives an official air to documents. The tie up to the VistaPrint site does sound a little as though such is licensed to them... Which might also explain the ridilulous cost of printed letter heads. (so much cheaper just knocking them out through your own printer).

I think that if you have to go to VistaPrint then go once for the minimum order then scan the document into your system and print your own after that.

I personally would not put the ICB logo on business cards, if you are going to mention them at all then the letters after your name say enough.

I like those!

I agree with Shaun - dont put their logo on your businesscards, save money by not doing and as Shaun says most people dont know what it is anyway. In fact as Ive posted on hear before Ive never actually been asked for which quals I have by any single customer and actually by very few of the Accountants Ive worked with. Something that Dave on here found hard to believe until he asked a few bods from the Accountancy office next to his workplace and they agreed.

Im not dont use your letters, just that overuse can be seen as off-putting. Its the usual horses for courses - see what works and adapt it as you go along.

Im still surprised at the ICB having to approve your businesscard - I thought it was the whole content of the card, rather than just the crest. Them wanting to retain the intregity of it I get - but surely there is one crest, one colour, cant see what the issue is that could arise. I wonder how many they have had go wrong. Plus I wonder how much they get back on commission for pushing people towards Vista Print.

Oh and on Vista Print - they have improved their offering but its still not great and Ive seen 'the look' people get when they hand one over....world gone mad or what!

Sorry -its not in any order!!! Ive been off the site for a godo few days as Im bombed and trying to get straight before having a few days off so now just trying to respond to as many as I can as quickly as possible (so I might make less sense than usual!!!!!!!!!!!)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
The questions raised by claims in that link are..
How many members do the ICB have in the UK now?
How many worldwide? In what countries?
How many people working as bookkeepers are members of the ICB? (I suspect relatively few with the bulk of people working as bookkeepers being AAT trained or PQs).
How can they state that they are the largest when the bulk of people working in a bookkeeping capacity are members of accounting bodies?
How can they claim to be a bookkeeping only organisation at all when they offer accounting services?
There seems to be no relevant statistics anywhere related to the ICB (not sure if thats better or worse than when the ICB did used to produce statistics but give no indication as to relevance and credibility of the underlying data).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wonder if they have to respond to a FOI request. Maybe we should send one and see what happens - anyone want me to try?

Nothing against you matey, just trying to ensure that people who read this site make their decisions based on considered facts (which are largely missing) rather than marketing spin.
Also nothing against what the ICB are trying to achieve, they are a business and are looking to grow and make income from all possible income streams as they should. The issue occurs when they start claiming differentiation and even superiority without verifiable third party evidence to support such claims.
All the best,
Shaun.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

TrevorD wrote:
Hi Kris
When I spoke to the IAB ... they would only let me join as an AIAB (the monthly committee has to approve your application) and then you can apply for a practice licence ... which then has to go through a process ... it seemed it may take some time ....

Hi Kris and Trevor

Would you not just trade without an association? Im not sure what fees the IAB/ICB charge but why not just get MLR from HMRC. (see my earlier comment, backed up by Dave's admittedly only small amount of investigation a while ago, as just one reason why I think you dont need either of them).