Preparing and doing peoples books.. - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

amz27 · Veteran Member

Preparing and doing peoples books..

attilabenko · Guru

Can I add another question to this?
Are you required to have an accountant going through your books at the end of year if you are self-employed?

semsley · Guru

attilabenko wrote:

Can I add another question to this?
Are you required to have an accountant going through your books at the end of year if you are self-employed?

No it's not required but advisable if you are trying to do it yourself without knowledge or a book-keeper.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Amy,

Yep, Sheila's right as always.

Do it yourself and win a free HMRC inspection!

The idea of a set of books is the presentation of a true and fair view of an entities affairs.

As was mentioned in a post yesterday for small companies the books have to adhere to the FRSSE. For larger companies it's FRS's or IFRS's, For multinationals it's IFRS's.

Reporting standards add detail to the companies act so take precedence over statute.

Important elements of preparing the books are the correct treatment of assets and liabilities. This includes revenue recognition, the treatment of off balance sheet financing, related party disclosures, Provisions, Asset and liability valuation, etc.

What may seem like quite a simple representation of an entities affairs seldom is and that's why we spend years (and small fortunes) studying financial reporting and having professional skepticism beaten into us.

Have a read of the FRSSE which is available on the ASB website. It's a meaty tome but you'll get some idea the sort of knowledge base that accountants have to have to prepare a set of accounts (and the FRSSE is just the little companies version).

Maybe we should as a profession print out a copy each and drop it in the feet of people in the pub who advise that one doesn't need an accountant just to prepare a companies books! lol.

amz27 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun,

Thanks for your reply.

I think I am getting a bit confused now!

I wanted to know mainly how to just keep records, i.e. getting all the receipts etc together and compiling them for the accountant. Is it just a case like I said earlier of basic in vs out table?

So if you wanted to actually do these accounts at the end of year, then you would have to fall into all of these guidelines, is this correct?

Thanks,

Amy

ETA: I am talking about doing 1 persons accounts who is self employed, not a company just in case I didnt make that clear!

-- Edited by amz27 on Wednesday 26th of May 2010 11:15:46 AM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Amy,

for the basic bookkeeping rather than accounts prep yes.

I use an Excel spreadsheet for mine but there's an excellent free cashbook that is available from VT (I think that it's actually called VT Cashbook).

Sorry, I read the preparing someone's books as accounts prep which is a bit different to the collation stage.

There is no reason that anyone with a bit of common sense cannot prepare a simple spreadsheet showing the business income and outgoings.

You just need to ensure proper cross referencing of every invoice and receipt preferably back to the bank / company credit card statements.

For more complex businesses you would normally employ a bookkeeper for that role and when you do there is normally some considerable crossover between the accountants and the bookkeepers roles as the role of a bookkeeper seldom ends at inputting transaction details.

Things really start to get interesting from trial balance which is when elements of professional judgment come into play regarding the likes of depreciation and fair value adjustments.

As I say though, strictly this is accountants and advanced bookkeeping territory and you don't really need to worry about it just to record the transactions.

Wella · Expert

Hi Amy

Just a few of my thoughts on your question

I think the problem with someone who is not familiar with bookkeeping trying to keep a set of books, is that they do not realise what is and isn't a business transaction and whet does and doesn't need to be recorded.

I think most small business people recognise what is income from their sales, the problem arises with the less obvious, like taking stock for own use, dealing with drawings, fuel/ transport and private use etc. There are also the common mistakes, like entering the principle of a loan as an expenses, putting through tax & Ni paid as an expense, treating a loan from friends/ family and calling it income, plus the many others that we have all come across.

If a simple Income and Expenditure list is made, then an accountant is going to have to unravel the data. Even then it may not be accurate, for example I've seen a business owner put his drawings down as wages and the accountant has taken this as an expense, which led to incorrect profit calculations (and therefore tax payments)

I suppose year end would normally be considered for bookkeeping purposes as the trial balance for soletraders with some bookkeeping knowledge. Inexperienced business owners doing their own books may hand over before this stage.

Best thing to do is get qualified ASAP and do them for your friend.

Bill

Wella · Expert

Beat me to it again Shaun

Bill

good afternoon, by the way

amz27 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun and Bill, thank you very much for your informative replies.

I will download the VT cashbook as you said Shaun and have a play around with that. Thanks for the heads up on that one!

Bill, I am currently studying AAT at the moment, so hopefully I will be able to make a start sometime in the near future with helping my friends. I know this is a silly question, but do you learn how to do peoples books for them on the AAT course? Or is it all seperate information and its up to you to piece it all together?

So after the compiling of all receipts, payments etc thats when the trial balance comes into play? How do you know what to be included in the accounts? I totally understand what you mean Bill about people not knowing what needs to be included and what doesnt, this is me! I know this is probably a very silly question, but I would just like to know what stages there are in this process and to know what information to include.

Sorry for the silly questions,

Amy

-- Edited by amz27 on Wednesday 26th of May 2010 12:10:35 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Afternoon Bill,

hope that the world is being nice to you today. It's gone a bit cold again here in the not so sunny Midlands.

Amy,

with AAT the early stages are all about getting to trial balance. In you're later studies you will learn all about building the balance sheet and P&L (I don't know what sort of depth AAT studies go to with Cashflow statements?).

You learn a lot about what goes where but it still doesn't cover everything.

I think that the main thing about your studies is that you get taught the basics and you learn where to look (invariably the HMRC, ASB, FRC and APB websites).

I know a bit but I don't think that there's a day goes by that I don't learn something new. This business is a constant learning exercise and you'll find that the more that you know the more that you realise that you don't....

Or in my case find that you've been fitted with a brain several sizes too small for the information that you need to store and as you learn new stuff something gets overwritten!

Mmm, just been absorbing ISA402 (audit of entities using service organisations)... Now where did I put that child of mine!!!

Wella · Expert

To quote Shaun "There's no such thing as a silly question, just silly answers"

I am not sure what is covered on AAT but I supsect that unless you follow the NVQ route, which is work placed, I don't think you get shown how to do the books as such. There are so many permutations, that it would be difficult. I would expect a fundemental view of the techniques and underpinning knowledge to be covered but only to a point where you could work out a best practice for yourself.

The question of what to include/ exclude, is basically a matter of judgement based on knowledge and experience.

I personally look at each transaction and decide which cubby hole it belongs in (account). On a simple set of books (a soletrader with a small amount of transactions), like Shaun I use an Excel spread sheet (see example expenses below) which is strictly speaking a schedule of transactions in its simplest form, with some very simple account headings for a particular client. I then run a monthly total under each account and transfer to a monthly summary (I have set it to run automatically).

I am however doing away with this and have moved over to VT+ and Final Accounts, which I think is great and keeping Sage for my more complicated clients

You haven't said where you are at with your course and wouldn't want to go over stuff you know but what might be basic knowledge for me may seem like rocket science to anyone who has only just opened the books

Anyway if you have more questions, feel free to ask

Transaction/ Invoice Date	Expenses
Transaction/ Invoice Date	Materials & Consumable	Courier, Postage & Packing	Advertising	Tools & Equipment	Motor Vehicle Expenses	Telephone & Internet	Accountancy & Book-Keeping	Bank & Transaction Charges	Sales Commission	Wages & Sub-Contracors	Misc. & Suspense

Bill

-- Edited by Wella on Wednesday 26th of May 2010 01:26:55 PM

Wella · Expert

Shamus wrote:

Afternoon Bill,

hope that the world is being nice to you today. It's gone a bit cold again here in the not so sunny Midlands.

Hi Shaun

All is well in, overcast, humid Cornwall

Bill

amz27 · Veteran Member

Hi again,

You have both been very helpful and I now dont feel so foolish!
Bill, I am at Advanced Certificate stage via the Diploma pathway which I am doing in my own time. I didnt do the Foundation level AAT as I did City & Guilds Book-keeping and Accounts level 1 and 2, so my training provider (after a test) said I could start at this stage.
I have learnt about trial balances, and end of year accounts (P & L, Balance sheets) in detail and feel confortable with this. I am now tackling stock valuation which I am really struggling with!

Anyway, what both of you said has made sense, its just frustrating when I'm learning from home and not in an accounts related role, I just wish I could put it all into practice and it would make things so much clearer!

Have you done the AAT then Bill?

Thanks,

Amy

amz27 · Veteran Member

Ps. Bill, I am in Cornwall too!

Amy

Wella · Expert

Hi Amy

I haven't done AAT, I went down the ICB route. I have pretty much decided to look at the AAT after June, when the qualification format changes.

I know what you mean about practical experience. I passed all but one ICB exams with distinctions and a couple at 100% so felt quite confident, then got my first client (eventually) and it was (is) nothing like the text books but as long as you know what is supposed to be happening, plus a bit of research on HMRC etc. you start to get the experience. I am not even sure that without the internet, it would be possible to start properly, without practical experience.

I also found that I am having to refresh my knowledge on some things that I have forgotten, because as you say, doing it from home, you don't have the same routines as at a work place. (One of the reasons I like this forum it gives me a chance to exercise the grey matter)

If you wanted to gain practical experience, say on a part time/ voluntary basis, you do have the advantage of AAT, which should get you through the door, even down here (Recently lost a potential client because I wasn't AAT qualified). The only caviat I would add, is that getting "in house" experience, will still only show you one way and will probably be a properly run office, if they employ bookkeeping/ accounting staff. If you plan to be a sole practioner, you will still find strange, unusual (and even a bit scarey) scenarios crop up that intially you will not have a clue what to do but you find away.

Where abouts are you? We are getting a nice little contingent down in the SW.

Bill

-- Edited by Wella on Wednesday 26th of May 2010 04:43:55 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Wella wrote:

I also found that I am having to refresh my knowledge on some things that I have forgotten

Sounds as though you were fitted with the wrong size brain as well Bill!

I think that you only have to read the posts on here for one day to realise the number of non textbook scenarios that crop up.

But, that's what we're here for. Always good to debate these things as even when the problem wasn't yours in the first place it definitely makes you a stronger bookkeeper working through other peoples problems.

attilabenko · Guru

Hi Sheila and everyone,

I did secretly know you not required to have an accountant if you are self-employed and I do think this should be where me and others who take on self-employed as client should earn money. I know sole traders are not the sort of client paying the best money but they are my main client base and as they don,t need an accountant I should be the one doing everything for them from books and payroll(if needed) to self assessment.
The only thing is people does not seem to know the difference between an accountant and a bookkeeper so they start to look for an accountant straight away, they assume it will cost a fair bit to them and they are ready to pay for it( well, they are not happy to pay so high accountancy fees but they think they have to). They don,t seem to know either if their books are not up to the standards they will be charged for bookkeeping as well on a higher rate and very likely at the end one of us will do the job getting paid less from the accountant than what the client has been charged.

So my next question is it ethical to advertise saying if you are a sole trader you don,t need an accountant for so much but get a bookkeeper for less?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Attila,

Its part of the IFAC code of ethics that as members of professional accounting bodies we all sign up for that one will not be disparaging of other member practices, make undue claims of the superiority of one's own services or do anything to bring the profession into disrepute.

It is also in the standards that one should be open, honest and professional in advertising. Advertising of fee's and fee comparisons are not considered to be professional.

In claiming that as bookkeepers we are able to offer a similar service to accountants at a fraction of the price could well be perceived as making unfounded claims about one's own services.

If as an accountant I suffered loss due to this sort of advertising I would not go to the person doing the advertising but directly to their supervisory body to lodge a complaint about unprofessional advertising.

attilabenko · Guru

hi shamus,
that,s what I thought. personaly I do feel as I said above lot of potential clients do not need actual accountancy services as such but bookkeeping only and they do not know that, in fact they're looking for an accountant straight away very likely because they have been told by friend,family,etc they will need one. they will be charged 40+ pounds hourly rate accountant fees and 15+ pounds bookkeeping fees and I don't think in times of recession they'll be told you are self employed with a shoebox full of invoices so I will charge you only 10 pounds per hour or even being told don,t need accountant but I can recommend a bookkeeper.well anyway that,s just my opinion. I was talking to lot of people and the impression I am getting is bookkeeper? what for? I need an accountant. I believe this is a potential market for us but no idea how to get it through. I could go on about this for ages,got lots of thoughts...
i am just trying to imagine a scenario sole trader goes to the practice and say i need end of year and managment accounts(no question,can be very useful even if it is not required by law).answer: yes i can do it for you,it will be so many pounds or if lucky will be asked do you need this,do you need that but will he be told he is not required to have any of this and to spend the money on a bookkeeper or on a summer holiday?i know they should be but are they really?

i think all these so called bookkeeping bodies should be spending on promoting bookkeeping to the wider public instead of to potential students :)

my question was just in theory anyway,i don,t like this sort of advertising, don,t worry
good to see what they teach you once you start accountancy studies and makes me think why is it not part of icb syllabus in some form.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Attila,

excellent reply... But I'm going to go off to bed now before I get sucked into an all night debate about the failings of the ICB.

Like yourself I've said it before that they are definitely geared towards throughput of students rather than the promotion of our trade.

The ACCA really pushes the ethics side of things and if once you've passed you fall short of the standards expected of an accountant you can get some quite nasty fines and possible expulsion.

Hope to continue this tomorrow but for now I'm off to lie down and recite the financial reporting, audit and ethical standards until I'm asleep (65 standards in total).... Am I a sad Muppet or what!

Night Attila, talk in the morning.

Shaun.

amz27 · Veteran Member

Hi Bill,

I am in Bude, North Cornwall. Lovely place to live I must say!

Thanks for all of your help on this site, I am really glad I found it.

Thanks,

Amy

Wella · Expert

amz27 wrote:
Hi Bill,

I am in Bude, North Cornwall. Lovely place to live I must say!

Thanks for all of your help on this site, I am really glad I found it.

Thanks,

Amy

Hi Amy

We really are practically neighbours then, I'm just down the road in Boscastle/ Tintagel.

Bill

Ssshhh don't tell everyone how nice it is to live here

chellawson · Senior Member

Wella wrote:

To quote Shaun "There's no such thing as a silly question, just silly answers"

The question of what to include/ exclude, is basically a matter of judgement based on knowledge and experience.

I personally look at each transaction and decide which cubby hole it belongs in (account). On a simple set of books (a soletrader with a small amount of transactions), like Shaun I use an Excel spread sheet (see example expenses below) which is strictly speaking a schedule of transactions in its simplest form, with some very simple account headings for a particular client. I then run a monthly total under each account and transfer to a monthly summary (I have set it to run automatically)

Transaction/ Invoice Date Expenses
Materials & Consumable Courier, Postage & Packing Advertising Tools & Equipment Motor Vehicle Expenses Telephone & Internet Accountancy & Book-Keeping Bank & Transaction Charges Sales Commission Wages & Sub-Contracors Misc. & Suspense

Bill

-- Edited by Wella on Wednesday 26th of May 2010 01:26:55 PM

Hi Bill,

I will be using spread sheets for most of my clients as Sage I think is far to much for what they would need. When you say you transfer the monthly totals automatically is this a function for Excel?

Wella · Expert

Hi Michelle

I find Sage has too many extra functions and is to expensive for the majority of my clients, as well (it does have it's place but not for me fully yet)

I create two work books, one expenses and one for Income (mainly to stop the work book becoming cumbersome and all my eggs aren't in one basket, should something go wrong).

The income workbook is quite simple, with a few columns for different incomes, if necessary.

I have a worksheet for each month and a summary worksheet in each workbook. I total the columns and link the results to the appropriate cell in the summary worksheet.

One thing I will say about using Excel is that it is easy to make a mistake and if there is an error, it is not always that obvious (Its easy to make a correction and accidently delete an underlying formula). A few years ago, researchers found that over 35% of professionally created Excel workbooks contained errors.

Like I said earlier I am now a VT Transactions convert and for simple accounts VT Cash Book. If you haven't tried it, I recommend it. Cash Book is free and VT+ Transactions, is available on a 60day trial. It is also Excel based and can be converted easily into Excel spreadsheets, for further manipulation/ reporting.

Bill

-- Edited by Wella on Friday 28th of May 2010 11:26:29 AM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Michelle,

It can be!

You can either use the consolidate command to bring the contents of multiple spreadsheets together (which I find cumbersome and does seem prone to having the odd tantrum!).

Or you could do as I do and have each month or quarter as a separate worksheet then have a totals worksheet that accumulates the exact references. (Not as difficult or time consuming to set up as it may sound).

There are probably other methods that could be used but those are to my thinking the common ones.

Peasie · Expert

Wella wrote:

One thing I will say about using Excel is that it is easy to make a mistake and if there is an error, it is not always that obvious (Its easy to make a correction and accidently delete an underlying formula). A few years ago, researchers found that over 35% of professionally created Excel workbooks contained errors.

Any time I have a formula in a cell I tend to have it shaded then I know it contains a formula and shouldn't be touched. My cells are shaded in bright colours knowing that they will be printed on a black and white laser printer.

I wish there was a simple way to lock a cell just by right clicking on it. Rather than the way Excel seems to want to lock all the cells and leave some cells unlocked. I always give up on trying to lock cells.

Rather than use all the different columns you could use a drop down list in a second column after the date and in the summary worksheet use the SUMIF formula. One thing I likle about the SUMIF formula in Excel 2010 is the option for having multiple criteria - unfortunately this formula won't then work if you open it in Excel 2003.

EDET : Forgot to add 2010.

-- Edited by Peasie on Friday 28th of May 2010 11:52:17 AM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Sounds as though you use the same method as myself to accumulate the worksheets Bill.

My own accounts are four quarter worksheets, A totals worksheet, a payroll worksheet and a sandbox worksheet not linked to the others for what if scenarios.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bill,

define professional!

Its basically anyone who is paid to do a role is doing it as a professional regardless as to their level of expertise in it.

From working in finance I know some of the straight out of Uni "professionals" who get to write spreadsheets and it surprises me that the figure is as low as 35%!

chellawson · Senior Member

Thank you for your replies.

How do I link the different spread sheets to put all the information onto a totals page. Im not good with formulas unless they are the basic ones.

I've sent up a cash book, sales and expenses sheet so need to transfer the monthly totals to a totals sheet.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

best way is if you have a workbook open, on the worksheet page where you want to show the result in the required cell enter = then go to the worksheet where you want the information from and click on that cell.

Now whenever the source cell value changes then so will the cell that you've set up to link to it.

Normally you would do this with totals.

If you need to make absolutely sure that everything has been recalculated just hit F9 to recalculate the spreadsheet.

You can set these all up as linked seperate workbooks but I wouldn't. Just have one workbook with lots of different worksheets in it.

You can link whole ranges of cells.

You can drag a reference cell to give links to adjacent cells in the original sheet.

It's really quite amazing how many ways you can do things with Excel.

Rhianrach · Expert

Totals page pick a cell and =SUM this will bring up a wizard type of box function arguments that will have boxes number 1, number 2,......... so click the cell in say sheet 1 and that will go in the first box click the next box, go to a different sheet and click the cell you need etc and so on.

I'm sure someone will explain this better, I would but I have Access to learn for an interview where I'm supposed to be proficient. smile

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Good luck in the interview Steve,

Access, yuk!

Excel can do everything that Access does only better.

How long have you got before the interview?

Do you have time to cover the basics of SQL and VBA for Access as that will score you brownie points if you can say that you've knocked up a few Access Macro's or analysed data using SQL queriesl.

Wella · Expert

Shamus wrote:

Hi Bill,

define professional!

Hi Shaun

I was generalising a bit but what I meant was someone who creates a spreadsheet on which important/ vital analytical information is extracted.

I confess I have made a cockup when creating a spreadsheet, that kept me at work until the very late hours (got to know the guys in security quite well). Luckily spotted the error before it was published. A simple case of adding or moving a referenced cell that should have been absolute, which would have caused an error message but as it wasn't an absolute reference, it just moved with the cell.

The problem with excel, is it is easy to make a hidden error. If it is feasible I usually add a temporary check sum column just so I can see if some of the obvious numbers look right.

Bill

PS BIG Access fan

Rhianrach · Expert

Shamus wrote:

Good luck in the interview Steve,

Access, yuk!

Excel can do everything that Access does only better.

How long have you got before the interview?

Do you have time to cover the basics of SQL and VBA for Access as that will score you brownie points if you can say that you've knocked up a few Access Macro's or analysed data using SQL queriesl.

I was hoping just to cover the basics in the couple of weeks I have as that is all I will need to be able to do, however if I happen to grasp it quickly,(like you say it's not much different to Excel just has a few fancy bits and like yourself I prefer Excel but needs must) I will try to learn a bit about the program side, of course this also depends on another interview I have nearer to the time. I can't be bothered learning about Access unless I have to biggrin

Rhianrach · Expert

Maybe Bill and Shaun will be able to help here.

Been working through an access workbook and I'm coming to the opinion that there is no real place for it in accounting except for maybe making reports look nice.

Still very much a novice at this so maybe it's because I haven't discovered its full functionality. Is there a lot more to it than this? Is there any reason to use the form functions in a financial role?
Basically is it more of an all-round Admin/Financial tool?

Can't seem to understand why the position would require abilities in both Excel and Access.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Steve,

not 100% sure of the question here so I'll answer what I think that your asking.

Access is a relational database. The bit everyone refers to as access is really just the front end, the way of getting the data into the database including setting up the field definitions etc.

The reality of access though is the database that is created in the background. This cab be queried by programs in various different computer languages normally using SQL in order to retrieve data for processing purposes which could be as simple as management reports or indeed the entire companies business could use access databases for it's day to day processing.

Things like Sage are all well and good but that is off the shelf software built for a specific purpose. If you want to create bespoke software for your company then at it's heart should be a sound database that services all parts of the business.

Excel is more of a front end in that it creates easy to manipulate management reports, what if scenarios, etc.

Excel can be used as a database but there are inherent restrictions on the database size (I believe the maximum size is still 65,536 rows by 256 columns... Conversely an Access database is restricted to 2GB rather than a specific number of columns and rows).

My problem with Access is what's the point in it? If your business is small enough then use Excel to do your database processing and if it's big enough to warrant a relational database then use something like Oracle. (Personally my expertise is with the IBM offering DB2 and also the old hierarchic databases under IMS).

All relational databases use SQL in order to retrieve information. Whilst there are slight differences in the format of the commands it basically comes down to the fact that there are only four data manipulation commands SELECT, INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE.

All of them complicate matters for performance and usability but once you have the four then everything else is just building on that.

So, conclusion. there is a place for Access in the running of many smaller companies that neither Excel or Sage can fill. However there are better alternatives (such as Oracle).

Right, now you can tell me that I've just answered a completely different question to the one asked!

semsley · Guru

I think a knowledge of access reports/reporting techniques could be useful in Sage report designer because it is very similiar and uses a relational database from which to extract data into the report, so you need to know how to drag in tables etc. Not too sure of all the terminology because I did ECDL Advanced but it was 6 years ago and I haven't really used Access much since then or taught it to that level.

Rhianrach · Expert

Shamus wrote:

Hi Steve,

not 100% sure of the question here so I'll answer what I think that your asking.

Access is a relational database. The bit everyone refers to as access is really just the front end, the way of getting the data into the database including setting up the field definitions etc.

The reality of access though is the database that is created in the background. This cab be queried by programs in various different computer languages normally using SQL in order to retrieve data for processing purposes which could be as simple as management reports or indeed the entire companies business could use access databases for it's day to day processing.

Things like Sage are all well and good but that is off the shelf software built for a specific purpose. If you want to create bespoke software for your company then at it's heart should be a sound database that services all parts of the business.

Excel is more of a front end in that it creates easy to manipulate management reports, what if scenarios, etc.

Excel can be used as a database but there are inherent restrictions on the database size (I believe the maximum size is still 65,536 rows by 256 columns... Conversely an Access database is restricted to 2GB rather than a specific number of columns and rows).

My problem with Access is what's the point in it? If your business is small enough then use Excel to do your database processing and if it's big enough to warrant a relational database then use something like Oracle. (Personally my expertise is with the IBM offering DB2 and also the old hierarchic databases under IMS).

All relational databases use SQL in order to retrieve information. Whilst there are slight differences in the format of the commands it basically comes down to the fact that there are only four data manipulation commands SELECT, INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE.

All of them complicate matters for performance and usability but once you have the four then everything else is just building on that.

So, conclusion. there is a place for Access in the running of many smaller companies that neither Excel or Sage can fill. However there are better alternatives (such as Oracle).

Right, now you can tell me that I've just answered a completely different question to the one asked!

Yeah you've answered my questions. smile

From what I can glean of Access it has nowhere near the functionality of excel as for as finance is concerned, I wanted to do calculation on it so I could generate fancy schmancy reports and it was seriously limited.

However I've managed to link forms to DB's so they can be altered via a user friendly interface and then generate super awesome looking reports but this is all I can seem to do.

Oh and the ability to update remotely as you say through a server seems nice.

I think the question was more to do with me thinking out loud and wondering why the position I am going for which is a lowly cash office job would require me to know how to use excel and access, the answer to this question lies within a young lady I go to college with who happens to work in the same office, biggrin

I shall crack on learning what all the buttons do and crowbar info out of her when I see her. smile

Rhianrach · Expert

semsley wrote:

I think a knowledge of access reports/reporting techniques could be useful in Sage report designer because it is very similiar and uses a relational database from which to extract data into the report, so you need to know how to drag in tables etc. Not too sure of all the terminology because I did ECDL Advanced but it was 6 years ago and I haven't really used Access much since then or taught it to that level.

I think you have also answered my question, and I quote,

" it was 6 years ago and I haven't really used Access much since then"

That's to me answers everything biggrin

Wella · Expert

Steve

I agree with both Shaun and Sheila

Like I said I am a fan of Access but only from a creating point of view (some people do Sudoku, I like to create databases!!) and Sheilas point about Sage reporting is spot on.

I do think that Access has some advantages over Excel, but mainly from a non technical front end user point of view. I know that excel can produce input forms but I don't find them as user friendly as a well created Access form and the reporting features are less flexible.

I think with Excel it is probably used more by an individual on their own workstation to fulfil their own needs, with Access it is probably more likely that someone will create a database that fulfils their needs but can be populated by anyone - if you know what I mean?

Of course the best solution is an Access database to collate the data linked to an Excel pivot table to number crunch the data.

Bill

PS Sheila, it's a Bank Holiday weekend - don't you go out caravanning??

semsley · Guru

Bill,

Yes usually every weekend, but hubby is involved with Scouts and the new Chief Scout, the one and only Bear Ghrylls, is visiting our local scout campsite this weekend, so he's out there camping in the rain and I'm home alone sadly scouring the internet.

Sheila

Wella · Expert

semsley wrote:

....home alone sadly scouring the internet.

Sounds familiar!

Bear Grhylls, you do realise hubby will come home with a dead badger and a collection of exotic wild plants for tea don't you. Perhaps you can scour the internet for some recipes

Rhianrach · Expert

Wella wrote:

Steve

I agree with both Shaun and Sheila

Like I said I am a fan of Access but only from a creating point of view (some people do Sudoku, I like to create databases!!) and Sheilas point about Sage reporting is spot on.

I do think that Access has some advantages over Excel, but mainly from a non technical front end user point of view. I know that excel can produce input forms but I don't find them as user friendly as a well created Access form and the reporting features are less flexible.

I think with Excel it is probably used more by an individual on their own workstation to fulfil their own needs, with Access it is probably more likely that someone will create a database that fulfils their needs but can be populated by anyone - if you know what I mean?

Of course the best solution is an Access database to collate the data linked to an Excel pivot table to number crunch the data.

Bill

PS Sheila, it's a Bank Holiday weekend - don't you go out caravanning??

I can see your point there with combining the 2, also as they dont appear to use any major accounting software (they use TAS I assume to enter balances) then having multiple user databases would be a good idea.

I suppose also that you could gather the data in access and export to excel and make any calculations you need there then export back to access for the fancy reporting feature. smile

attilabenko · Guru

hi steve,

i think the point of access is what shaun said, the SQL and because of that as you can gather from the name,the access-to the database. and i must agree with shaun if a company needs sql there is better solutions and if they don,t use sql then there you go,no need access. me personally well i prefer ready made softwares like sage. once i had to learn about sql servers and database and i failed :( and the other day someone wanted me to use MGP, i couldn,t get my head around it.i do get on with excel and if i don,t know something i can ask a lot of people but i wouldn,t know who to ask about great plains.i am kind of lucky with access,wife used to work in it support and it was about microsoft sql.
good luck!

-- Edited by attilabenko on Sunday 30th of May 2010 11:23:02 PM

Rhianrach · Expert

Cheers Attila, still getting my head round access, managed to create databases and link them but linking the forms is being quirky so a bit more work yet. evileye